Lenin & Trotsky: Did they support workers democracy before they took power?

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Anarcho
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Apr 24 2018 19:17
Dyjbas wrote:
In years 1903-1918 (roughly), the Bolsheviks were the party of revolution. Afterwards, they became the party of the state. That's the difference. The dynamics within the party changed due to the circumstances that it found itself in, the mentality of those joining the party & the leaders changed, and so did the party's internal culture. The events you list there were the consequence of that process (as well as the general degeneration of the situation in Soviet Russia).
The Bolsheviks were not the party of revolution -- just look at their position on the soviets in 1905 (accept our programme or disband -- which puts events after 1917 in some needed context). They as much as the Mensheviks argued that 1905 had to be a bourgeois revolution -- unlike anarchists, who argued for the need to push onwards to social revolution (and argued the soviets would form the basis of the communist commune). As for becoming the party of the state -- that was their aim! That was the whole basis of their ideology -- and Lenin was urging Bolshevik seizure of power all through 1917. Yes, indeed, the "mentality" of the party changed once in power -- as anarchists had long predicted! So, yes, the degeneration of the revolution confirmed the anarchist critique of Marxism. All in all, the only thing the Bolsheviks teach us is how not to organise, how not to have a revolution,
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Noa Rodman
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Apr 25 2018 04:58
Jon, I'm still waiting for some reference to your claim that one of Lenin's first actions was the firing of neutral elections commissioners.
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jondwhite
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Apr 25 2018 09:15
Page 381, Lenin the Dictator by Victor Sebestyen (2017, Weidenfeld & Nicolson)
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Noa Rodman
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Apr 25 2018 13:59
Thanks Jon, he doesn't seem to give a source, but he mentions that their job was "to oversee the practical arrangements for running" the CA (and that Lenin replaced them with Uritsky). That reminds us that any elections require organisation, and also that a parliament entails not just a chamber with the elected, but requires a whole service staff (numbering thousands of people who assist MPs, etc.). I don't remember how the latter is called in Britain, but it's an entire "neutral" bureaucracy.
Dave B
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Apr 26 2018 17:42
fyi http://spartacus-educational.com/RUSassembly.htm
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Gepetto
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May 31 2018 22:11
Red Mariott wrote:
This makes them sound like nationalistic warmongers, yet Left SR positions of the time were quite different. The Left SRs were as anti-WWI and pro-international workers revolution as the bolsheviks, they initially supported the bolshevik seizure of power and held posts in that government.
You could also defend Kautsky in a similar way. The fact is that, strangely enough, the Left-SRs (by which actually is meant here their Central Committee- the majority of their membership opposed that insane course) assasinated only the German ambassador, but didn't assassinate the French or the British one, even though already by that time the Entente had been occupying Anadyr and Arkhangelsk. If they did this, that would be of course no less foolish, but at least they would have been honest fools, so one could believe in that crap about revolutionary war against imperialism and so on. Quote:
But they were against the bolsheviks’ curbing of trade union power
Interestingly enough, at the First Congress of Trade Unions, the Mensheviks tried to preserve the independence of trade unions at all costs, the anarcho-syndicalists tried to establish them as organs of management, the Bolsheviks proposed they be merged with the factory committees, and the PLSR - that they be subordinated to the state. Quote:
their curbing of press freedom
Do you have any clue what a civil war is? [quote[and suppression of other parties. Gee, I wonder what these "other parties" were...
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Red Marriott
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May 31 2018 23:03
Another Bolshevik apologist appears... I wasn't even 'defending' the Left SRs - just correcting a misleading impression by listing their stated grievances. The left communist Miasnikov was against curbing of press freedoms - and he knew what a civil war was, probably better than you. He also knew what Bolshevik/Cheka repression felt like.
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Reddebrek
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May 31 2018 23:41
Welcome back. Gepetto wrote:
You could also defend Kautsky in a similar way. The fact is that, strangely enough, the Left-SRs (by which actually is meant here their Central Committee- the majority of their membership opposed that insane course) assasinated only the German ambassador, but didn't assassinate the French or the British one, even though already by that time the Entente had been occupying Anadyr and Arkhangelsk. If they did this, that would be of course no less foolish, but at least they would have been honest fools, so one could believe in that crap about revolutionary war against imperialism and so on.
Yeah I hate when central committees of workers parties go against the wishes of the party membership, too. Really shows the folly of Lenin, Trotsky and Bordiga's fetish for centralisation as a political strategy doesn't it? Quote:
Interestingly enough, at the First Congress of Trade Unions, the Mensheviks tried to preserve the independence of trade unions at all costs, the anarcho-syndicalists tried to establish them as organs of management, the Bolsheviks proposed they be merged with the factory committees, and the PLSR - that they be subordinated to the state.
And in the early days the Bolsheviks were against the death penalty even for desertion from the front. Didn't take very long for the CC to change its mind. Quote:
Do you have any clue what a civil war is?
You know funnily enough the Bolsheviks were in uproar when Kerensky started suppressing their newspapers. And Marx didn't think the German states being in revolt in 1848 was a good enough reason to shutdown his Rheinish Zeitung. Quote:
Gee, I wonder what these "other parties" were...
Well a pretty good chunk were those who worked with the Bolsheviks, and many were Bolsheviks themselves, or members of the Red army.