In prisons of the USSR homosexuals had the name "cocks"

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meerov21
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Sep 2 2017 13:47
In prisons of the USSR homosexuals had the name "cocks"
For me it looks amazing. I mean first there is flag of the totalitarian Soviet Union, the flag under which the Leninists murdered millions of people and thousands of anarchists. But the second part is already looks like a joke. Beside the red flag, we observe the rainbow flag of the LGBT community. It's especially funny (and simultaneously disgusting), since the Soviet regime persecuted homosexuals since the beginning of the 1930s until the late 1980s, nearly half a century. Criminal liability for homosexuality was entered into the law of 7 March 1934 and operated until June 3, 1993. In Soviet criminal law "sodomy" refers to crimes against the person and punishable by imprisonment for a term "not exceeding five years". But that's not all. In concentration camps and prisons of the USSR homosexuals were considered as the lowest caste and were they called by the word "cocks". Almost all of them had been sexually abused and raped. Thousands of homosexuals was arrested including famous artists, for example the popular singer Vadim Kozin. Also outstanding ballet dancer Rudolf Nureyev was forced to flee to the West . I wonder to what extent some of so-called "antifa" of US despise victims of the Bolshevik prisons and, as well, homosexuals? https://www.facebook.com/GreatLakesAntiFa/videos/1735399426753521/
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Khawaga
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Sep 2 2017 14:43
Why do you keep posting nonsense?
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Hieronymous
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Sep 2 2017 14:58
For every hammer and sickle and Soviet flag, there are literally thousands of circle A's and black flags. Are you alleging some nutty conspiracy, that all the latter are dupes of the former? And where do you live? Just admit you are making these assumptions from selectively looking at pictures on Facebook.
Fleur
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Sep 2 2017 15:19
I doubt that there are many apologists for the Soviet Union amongst regular users of this site, so I have no idea why you think this is relevant in any way to contemporary anti fascist organization, other than your fucked up opinion that LGBTQ liberation has no place in anarchism.
meerov21
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Sep 2 2017 17:33
Hieronymous For every hammer and sickle and Soviet flag, there are literally thousands of circle Wha's an amazing tolerance for hate-speech red fassism! You know, swastika has many meanings, ultimately it's just a solar symbol. If I understand correctly, you don't mind if people wear a flag with a swastika on the streets of London and NY; the flag, which looks the same as the flag of the Third Reich? And where do you live? I am by birth a Russian Jew, live in Russia, I lived in Israel in the past.
meerov21
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Sep 2 2017 17:43
Fleur I doubt that there are many apologists for the Soviet Union amongst regular users of this site, so I have no idea why you think this is relevant in any way to contemporary anti fascist organization, I did not understand. I hear all the time that anti-fascists in USA are fighting against hate-speech, and for LGBT rights. Why, then, are they tolerant to the red fascists and the symbols of the persecution of anarchists, peasants, strikers and the LGBT - the flag of USSR (my ex and fortunately dead homeland)? other than your fucked up opinion that LGBTQ liberation has no place in anarchism. Of course, I didn't say that. I said that in rural areas and in small towns of Syria it is impossible to raise the LGBT flag. This is not the same thing. You're lying and that's not good. This does not mean that I oppose LGBT rights. And I, anyway, do not go on the demonstration with the flag of the totalitarian state, under which thousands of gays was raped and murdered.
meerov21
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Sep 2 2017 17:45
Khawaga Why do you keep posting nonsense? Why are you so intolerant? Be polite, try to find arguments, don't be rude to people.
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Hieronymous
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Sep 2 2017 18:25
meerov21 wrote:
Hieronymous For every hammer and sickle and Soviet flag, there are literally thousands of circle Wha's an amazing tolerance for hate-speech red fassism! You know, swastika has many meanings, ultimately it's just a solar symbol. If I understand correctly, you don't mind if people wear a flag with a swastika on the streets of London and NY; the flag, which looks the same as the flag of the Third Reich? And where do you live? I am by birth a Russian Jew, live in Russia, I lived in Israel in the past.
So you are commenting on all this from a continent away, judging based on mere images on your computer screen. Not a reliable method of analysis, comrade. I've been to many of these anti-white nationalist conflagrations and have neither seen a hammer and sickle nor a swastika (although I've seen variations of more modern neo-Nazi symbols). Although at an evening march in San Francisco on the day of the inauguration, January 20th, I did see some xenophobes with a hammer and sickle on a sign equating Trump with Russia and Putin. That's kinda the opposite of what you're saying. And back then we went round and round with a Turkish comrade here on libcom who called the anti-Trump protests expressions of American patriotism, nationalism and xenophobia. They can't be both.
meerov21
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Sep 2 2017 18:34
I've been to many of these anti-white nationalist conflagrations and have neither seen a hammer and sickle nor a swastika. So naw you see smile I did see some xenophobes with a hammer and sickle sign equating Trump with Russia and Putin. That's kinda the opposite of what you're saying. No. Krimlin supports a part of the far right, such as Marine Le Pen, Trump. At the same time modern Kremlin has revived the cult of the USSR. It is logical that the extreme right-wingers love the flag. Similarly, many on the left love it because to them it is a symbol of Bolshevism and. simbol of modern Russia fighting with USA in Ukrane etc. P.S. I believe that at least part of the anti-fascists knew the meaning of the flag of the USSR. At least some knew that this is the flag of the totalitarian state, and the Bolshevik shit. So why no one expressed outrage and asked to remove this flag? Why the reaction to the flag of the Third Reich would have been different? And I'll tell you. Because many anti-fascists in the U.S. tolerant of Bolshevism and USSR where my relatives have been arested.
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Khawaga
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Sep 2 2017 19:01
Russia is likely also the ground zero for bashing antifa and has been so successful that even parts of the left and anarchists have fallen for it hook, line and sinker. And FYI, antifa isn't about countering hate speech, but organized fascists.
radicalgraffiti
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Sep 2 2017 19:16
What you need to understand is in the West the hammer and sickle is generally seen as a stumble of communism not just as the stumble of the USSR. Now I don't agree with this but that's how it is, so it's used by many people who don't agree with everything the USSR did or are not all that aware of things it did like imprisoning gays, there is a tendency to ignore the actual bad stuff the USSR did because of the missive amount of anti communist propgander. So, people who use the hammer and sickle are problems more likely on average to oppose homophobia and some of them are gay. It a be extremely stupid to assume that because someone was flying a hammer and sickle flag that they hate gay people or plan violence against them. On average they are probably less homophobic than the general population
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jef costello
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Sep 2 2017 22:04
Hmm, either antifa are secretly homophobic, and racist and sexist and in favour of all the terrible things done by the 'communist' USSR or they are carrying a communist symbol without really thinking it through, or even they are at a public demonstration and just didn't stop someone carrying a symbol that has been misused? Now I know we can argue that the swastika is also an appropriated symbol, but it is pretty hard to claim that you don't know what it was used for, whereas I think the hammer and sickle is less tarnished, at least in western eyes. It probably should be treated differently, but that doesn't seem to be what you are getting at, in fact I am not sure what your purpose is in posting.
meerov21
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Sep 2 2017 23:02
jef costello I know we can argue that the swastika is also an appropriated symbol, but it is pretty hard to claim that you don't know what it was used for, whereas I think the hammer and sickle is less tarnished, at least in western eyes. Yes, I see wink And it looks offensive and, at least, causes distrust of the Western leftists and antifa. I'm not saying that they are all homophobes or Leninists. But I'm very surprised by the use of symbols of the totalitarian state, which had been killed thousands of anarchists, millions of peasants and workers, thousands of gays. And I would say that at least part of the anti-fascists know this. Their tolerance of totalitarian symbols looks disgusting. No one approached these people and asked them removed the flag. American anti-fascists claim that the right wing should be deprived of freedom of speech, as they use the word to spread hatred. But what is the flag with the Hammer and Sickle in the eyes of millions of Americans? For many millions of Ukrainians, Jews, Poles, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Czechs, Latvians, Estonians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, Chechens, Russian Germans, Kalmyks, Crimean Tatars, Russians it is a symbol of oppression. I've heard African-Americans say they're offended by the Confederate flag. I know many people who wear the Confederate flag, say they oppose racism. I don't know whether it's true or not. In any case, when African-Americans say they're offended by the Confederate flag, I can understand that. So tens of millions of people in the United States and outside the United States insulted the dirty flag of the USSR. or they are carrying a communist symbol without really thinking it through But what is the Communist symbol? Marxism-Leninism was a terrible tragedy for the people in Eastern Europe, China, etc. If someone defends this ideology, he is the enemy. Marxist-Leninists freely attend the demonstrations of antifa and other left-wing and you all know this very well. I understand that you can make a deal with the enemy against another enemy. But in this case the argument that it is necessary to deprive of freedom of speech of those who spread hatred, deprived of sense.
meerov21
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Sep 2 2017 23:18
"radicalgraffiti there is a tendency to ignore the actual bad stuff the USSR did because of the missive amount of anti communist propgander. " Yeah, but think about what you say. First The main propaganda of the United States was not directed against Communist anarchism, but against the Soviet Union. Yes, perhaps, American propagandists exaggerated certain negative features of the USSR (although, the study of the history of the early Soviet Union convinces me that American propaganda may be underestimated sometimes the evil that brought the world by Bolshevism: I'm not sure that the propaganda of the United States said Soviet Regime organized the ethnic cleansing against 60 ethnic groups (3.5 million people) during and immediately after the second world war - at that time USA was an ally of the USSR.). But may be they exaggerated. So what? American propagandists criticized the Third Reich also. Is thet justification for the lovers of the swastika flag? Second. Why do you care the Confederate flag offends African-Americans (and I agree that they can feel the insult), but don't care that millions of people living in the United States (Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians) are offended by the flag of the USSR?
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Khawaga
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Sep 2 2017 23:26
You really don't understand what antifa does if you think it's about freedom of speech. You keep referring to that but it's an alt-right talking point, which you and many other so-called anarchists have fallen for.
radicalgraffiti
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Sep 2 2017 23:53
meerov21 wrote:
"radicalgraffiti there is a tendency to ignore the actual bad stuff the USSR did because of the missive amount of anti communist propgander. " Yeah, but think about what you say. First The main propaganda of the United States was not directed against Communist anarchism, but against the Soviet Union. Yes, perhaps, American propagandists exaggerated certain negative features of the USSR (although, the study of the history of the early Soviet Union convinces me that American propaganda may be underestimated sometimes the evil that brought the world by Bolshevism: I'm not sure that the propaganda of the United States said Soviet Regime organized the ethnic cleansing against 60 ethnic groups (3.5 million people) during and immediately after the second world war - at that time USA was an ally of the USSR.). But may be they exaggerated. So what? American propagandists criticized the Third Reich also. Is thet justification for the lovers of the swastika flag?
stuff like this, and decades of movie villans, makes it really easy for people to think that all negartive things said about hte soviat union are made up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism meerov21 wrote:
Second. Why do you care the Confederate flag offends African-Americans (and I agree that they can feel the insult), but don't care that millions of people living in the United States (Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, Ukrainians, Lithuanians) are offended by the flag of the USSR?
if someone uses the confederate flag or the swastika they are advocating white supremacism, racism genocide etc. if someone uses the hammer and sickle they are advocating communism equality, freedom etc they are doing it badly, but that is the intention. its not even remotely the same, it would be better if they used a different symbol, but we know what they mean no one ever uses the hammer an sickle to indicate that they hate gay people and want to carry out ethnic cleansing
meerov21
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Sep 3 2017 00:36
if someone uses the confederate flag or the swastika they are advocating white supremacism, racism genocide etc. if someone uses the hammer and sickle they are advocating communism equality, freedom etc they are doing it badly, but that is the intention. How do you know? I haven't met a single Leninist, including in the countries of the West, who would fight for freedom or equality or for communism. These people are supporters of the authoritarian centralism of the party, the party hierarchy, the nationalization of the economy (and this is one of the most brutal forms of exploitation of workers by the state), and they are in one way or another justify the crimes of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin or Mao. These people are enemies of humanity. Moreover, I do not care what is happening in their strange souls. Their flag with the hammer and sickle is flag of the USSR is an insult millions of people, living and dead, U.S. citizens and citizens of European countries. Just like the Confederate flag offends African-Americans. By the way, some people who use the Confederate flag, say they are against racism. Even if they're not lying, this is not so important. stuff like this, and decades of movie villans, makes it really easy for people to think that all negartive things said about hte soviat union are made up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism I have not read the Black Book of communism. Saw only fragments of it. I suspect that thanks to the study of the documents and modern scholarly works about the Soviet Union I can tell you about this shit much more horror than any book published in the West. A member of my family that was repressed, could tell more, but he died.
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jondwhite
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Sep 3 2017 10:28
The only person on these forums who remotely defends Bolshevism is Noa and even they are I think Bolshie-critical. Nobody else would march under the hammer and sickle or Soviet Flag (incidentally the red flag predates this). Although actively stopping anyone from bringing one to a large demo is not feasible. While a lot of (or most) antifa might be anarchists, I don't think they're any less opposed to Bolshevism (than fascism) who aren't a serious threat in the West being largely tiny, not near power and quite capable of undermining each other. meerov, how much do you know of anti-Leninism or are you just concerned about antifa?
adri
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Sep 3 2017 11:34
jondwhite wrote:
The only person on these forums who remotely defends Bolshevism is Noa and even they are I think Bolshie-critical. Nobody else would march under the hammer and sickle or Soviet Flag (incidentally the red flag predates this). Although actively stopping anyone from bringing one to a large demo is not feasible. While a lot of (or most) antifa might be anarchists, I don't think they're any less opposed to Bolshevism (than fascism) who aren't a serious threat in the West being largely tiny, not near power and quite capable of undermining each other. meerov, how much do you know of anti-Leninism or are you just concerned about antifa?
Haven't read meerov's comments, but various far-right figures, David Duke, Alex Jones, prattle on about a "Bolshevik revolution" in America and refer to antifa as "the Bolsheviks", I guess, to sound more intelligent in their opposition to antifa, as if America were anywhere close to the brink of revolution or as if antifa's (mostly anarchists) politics were anything like the Bolsheviks'. If anyone's ever in need of a laugh just read Alex Jones' utterly ridiculous video titles, "Democrat Plan To Launch Second Bolshevik Revolution Discovered."
meerov21
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Sep 3 2017 11:34
"zugzwang Haven't read meerov's comments, but various far-right figures, David Duke, Alex Jones, prattle on about a "Bolshevik revolution" in America" Well it looks like You use technique named "Reduction to Hitler". If the bad guy said something it does not mean that this is not true. Hitler was a vegetarian, but it does not mean that all vegetarians are Nazis. And I'm not saying that Bolshevik revolution will be. I'm talking about hypocrisy: you Cannot on the one hand to denounce the right-wing totalitarian propaganda symbols and hate speech, and with the other hand to be tolerant of left totalitarianism and the symbols of hate (flag of the USSR), which is an insult to millions of people in the United States and outside the United States as well as the Confederate flag.
meerov21
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Sep 3 2017 11:35
arkface: not to give too much credence to meerov21, but in St Louis there is a growing MLM antifascist bloc. They aren't dressed in back or anything, just masked up, open carrying and dressed more in the suits and commie hats of the party. It's pretty fucked and they are actually using the language of antifa and anarchism here in sneaky direction towards mao. STL isn't really a hotbed of fascists at the moment, so a lot of the anti-fascist struggle here comes off a bit contrived and full of bravado. I often have trouble understanding anti-fascist organizing against the very real fascist threat outside of here cuz I'm more at odds with police and landlords than fascists who are prolly to scared to come here. https://libcom.org/forums/general/antifa-charlottesville-20082017
adri
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Sep 3 2017 11:43
meerov21 wrote:
"zugzwang Haven't read meerov's comments, but various far-right figures, David Duke, Alex Jones, prattle on about a "Bolshevik revolution" in America" Well it looks like You use technique named "Reduction to Hitler". If the bad guy said something it does not mean that this is not true. Hitler was a vegetarian, but it does not mean that all vegetarians are Nazis. And I'm not saying that Bolshevik revolution will be. I'm talking about hypocrisy: you Cannot on the one hand to denounce the right-wing totalitarian propaganda symbols and hate speech, and with the other hand to be tolerant of left totalitarianism and the symbols of hate (flag of the USSR), which is an insult to millions of people in the United States and outside the United States as well as the Confederate flag.
I wasn't making a comment about you or doing any "guilt by association" stuff. I was just making an observation about the application of the term "Bolshevik" to anti-fascists by the far-right.
adri
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Sep 3 2017 11:43
double post
meerov21
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Sep 3 2017 11:47
"zugzwang I wasn't making a comment about you or doing any "guilt by association" stuff. I was just making an observation about the application of the term "Bolshevik" to anti-fascists by the far-right." OK, I understand. I'm sorry if I offended you. We call that red shit as "Bolsheviks" in Eastern Europe, because we don't want to spoil the name of "communism".
meerov21
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Sep 3 2017 11:50
meerov21 wrote:
arkface: not to give too much credence to meerov21, but in St Louis there is a growing MLM antifascist bloc. They aren't dressed in back or anything, just masked up, open carrying and dressed more in the suits and commie hats of the party. It's pretty fucked and they are actually using the language of antifa and anarchism here in sneaky direction towards mao.STL isn't really a hotbed of fascists at the moment, so a lot of the anti-fascist struggle here comes off a bit contrived and full of bravado. I often have trouble understanding anti-fascist organizing against the very real fascist threat outside of here cuz I'm more at odds with police and landlords than fascists who are prolly to scared to come here. https://libcom.org/forums/general/antifa-charlottesville-20082017
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jef costello
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Sep 3 2017 11:51
meerov21 wrote:
Yes, I see wink And it looks offensive and, at least, causes distrust of the Western leftists and antifa. I'm not saying that they are all homophobes or Leninists. But I'm very surprised by the use of symbols of the totalitarian state, which had been killed thousands of anarchists, millions of peasants and workers, thousands of gays. And I would say that at least part of the anti-fascists know this. Their tolerance of totalitarian symbols looks disgusting. No one approached these people and asked them removed the flag. American anti-fascists claim that the right wing should be deprived of freedom of speech, as they use the word to spread hatred. But what is the flag with the Hammer and Sickle in the eyes of millions of Americans? For many millions of Ukrainians, Jews, Poles, Lithuanians, Hungarians, Czechs, Latvians, Estonians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Uzbeks, Chechens, Russian Germans, Kalmyks, Crimean Tatars, Russians it is a symbol of oppression. I've heard African-Americans say they're offended by the Confederate flag. I know many people who wear the Confederate flag, say they oppose racism. I don't know whether it's true or not. In any case, when African-Americans say they're offended by the Confederate flag, I can understand that. So tens of millions of people in the United States and outside the United States insulted the dirty flag of the USSR. .
I don't think the problem here is what they believe, it is the poor choice of symbol. I don't think people here would make that mistake. In which case we need education, people should be aware of it but they are not. I don't think that your first post makes this clear, but I think your response is clearer. I think that this is certainly a case where people need to be more aware of the history behind the symbol. I can't find the thread but there was a discussion about whether Stalinists should be accepted on May day demonstrations. I remember it being pretty interesting, although Devrim pointed out that in view of the numbers, organisation and history of Turkish stalinists it anarchists would not have been capable of doing so.
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jondwhite
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Sep 3 2017 12:28
Apart from as previously mentioned, virtually no one here is actively tolerating Bolsheviks. There is no antifa HQ which can rule Bolsheviks in or out or any actions.
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Khawaga
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Sep 3 2017 14:34
Meerov's understanding of antifa comes from right-wing talking points. That he continues to believe that it's all about hate speech and offending symbols demonstrates that. He's completely accepted the alt-right parameter for the debate over antifa, hence why he keeps bringing up the ussr flag. And also why he seems to think antifa is an actual organization. Then again, this posting style is typical of meerov: never any facts, but he doubles down on his own make believe.
meerov21
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Sep 3 2017 20:47
Well, I think that the video that I present, are the proof. I do not suffer from hysteria, and not looking throughout the Alt-right, and just giving the facts. Here's an interview where the anti-FA say about hate-speech. May be it is not real anti-fascists? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ET1ozKHRkE
Fleur
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Sep 3 2017 21:13
Jesus fuck, are you actually presenting a FoxNews segment as "evidence "? No wonder you have a peculiar idea of what you think is happening on this continent.
meerov21
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Sep 3 2017 21:29
"Fleur Jesus fuck, are you actually presenting a FoxNews segment as "evidence "? No wonder you have a peculiar idea of what you think is happening on this continent." I use different evidence like the video above, or "arkface". But I have a feeling that some leftists love to play such game as "Reductio ad Hitlerum". Do you really think that if Hitler said that two plus two is four, then in reality there is five? I don't care what channel, I equally don't like the left and right channels of a manipulative machine called TV. I asked the question is that real anti-fascists or not? So You're not at a leninist party meeting, try to speak intelligently and clearly answer my question.