In prisons of the USSR homosexuals had the name "cocks"

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Fleur
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Sep 3 2017 21:37

Try to speak intelligently and clearly?
That's very good advice you could give yourself. How am I supposed to extrapolate the political opinions of a couple of talking heads from a 4 minute bit of TV punditry.

Fwiw, Hitler's been dead for a long time. It's not him that's the problem, it's the living, breathing fascists who are terrorizing people and communities right now.

meerov21
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Sep 3 2017 22:04

"Fleur Jesus fuck, are you actually presenting a FoxNews segment as "evidence "? No wonder you have a peculiar idea of what you think is happening on this continent."

I use different evidence like the video above, or "arkface". But I have a feeling that some leftists love to play such game as "Reductio ad Hitlerum". Do you really think that if Hitler said that two plus two is four, then in reality there is five? I don't care what channel, I equally don't like the left and right channels of a manipulative machine called TV. I asked the question is that real anti-fascists or not? So You're not at a leninist party meeting, try to speak intelligently and clearly answer my question.

Try to speak intelligently and clearly?
That's very good advice you could give yourself.

You're absolutely right. Every time when i am talking to left-wing or right-wing I give myself this advice.

How am I supposed to extrapolate the political opinions of a couple of talking heads from a 4 minute bit of TV punditry.

No, no, I'm not interested in your extrapolation. When I gave the link to this channel, I saw you have something similar to a panic attack. Then I asked, whether these people are anti-fascists or it's a fake made by the right-wing channel? You never answered my question...

Fwiw, Hitler's been dead for a long time. It's not him that's the problem, it's the living, breathing fascists who are terrorizing people and communities right now.

I agree with you. But this is not clear and Intelligent answer to my question.

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Hieronymous
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Sep 3 2017 22:20

For fucks sake, is libcom a debate forum where Fox News is used to back up a position? That's fucking lame and pathetic because it ends with the Fox interviewer asking ex-Nazi Frank Meeink how his information can be used by the FBI and police. Meerov are you advocating collusion with the pigs? Because frankly I don't have a clue what you're on about. Unless it's that we should denounce anyone with a USSR flag -- and if that's the case, you're fucking clueless!

Fleur
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Sep 3 2017 22:31

I didn't have a panic attack when I saw the Fox link. I have an anxiety disorder, so trust me when I say I know what a pain attack is. What you actually saw was my reaction to an utterly pathetic attempt on your part to back up your rather unintelligent argument by posting a Fox segment.

As for your question, it was just dumb so I have no idea what kind of answer you're expecting. Do I know if the guy being interviewed was real antifa? How the fuck would I know? I don't know him.

This is such a waste of time, you are clearly clueless about antifa, or North American far right movements and like Hieronymous I can't work out what you're drivelling on about.

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Serge Forward
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Sep 3 2017 22:58

No one can. He's just talking a right load of arse. Best ignore the troll eh.

meerov21
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Sep 3 2017 23:51

I didn't have a panic attack when I saw the Fox link. I have an anxiety disorder, so trust me when I say I know what a pain attack is.

I see. Now try to calm down, despite your obvious illness and try to understand what I said. I have heard many times from anti-fascists they believed that they will not allow the right wing to Express views publicly, as the right wing spread hatred through the speech. I believe that this is the standard position of the anti-fascists. Or are you saying that anti-fascists advocate the freedom of expression and demonstrations for the right wing? This is clearly not the case. In confirmation of this position, I use antifa on channel TV of United States. Is This position differs from the standard position anti-fascists? Of cours no. And what's the difference, in this case, on what TV channel is it? Can i give the links on CNN for example or not?

Please, stay calm. I don't want you have problems with pain or panic.

As for your question, it was just dumb so I have no idea what kind of answer you're expecting.

Why are you being rude? I did not insult you.

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Hieronymous
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Sep 4 2017 00:17

Serge Forward wrote:

He's just talking a right load of arse. Best ignore the troll eh.

Agreed.

Don't feed the troll.

meerov21
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Sep 4 2017 00:35

jef costello I don't think it's just a matter of education. From the participant of the Camp of the Class Struggle (the Radical part of the Occupy-wall Street) I am aware of the presence of the Leninists in the American protest movements and the willingness of many anarchists to cooperate with them. I don't think this is all is just about education.

On the other hand, there is the issue of abuse, offense. The truth is, I don't think there's much sense in reacting to a symbol of something, such as the Confederate flag or the flag of the USSR. There is always a chance that the one who carries it, is not red or brown fascist. May be this person does not understand what is the meaning of this symbol, gives it an erroneous meaning, or he's just an idiot.

But on the other hand, I understand African-Americans who was offended by the Confederate flag and I understand Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Georgians etc insulted by the flag of the USSR. So, if you show such sensitivity in one situation, it was worth it to be in another case.

P.S. Incidentally, the term "red fascism" was used by the anarchist Vsevolod Volin (associate of Makhno, the author of the book the Unknown revolution) and the German revolutionary marxist Otto Rule (the Struggle against fascism begins with the struggle against Bolshevism).

1. https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/voline-red-fascism
2. https://www.marxists.org/archive/ruhle/1939/ruhle01.htm

Fleur
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Sep 4 2017 00:56

I am perfectly calm. I can guarantee you that I would never have a stronger reaction to a patronizing fool like you other than mild irritation. You have been posting long, largely incoherent screeds on a subject you obviously know nothing about, your own opinions filtered through right wing sites and you have been ignoring people who have patiently tried to explain things to you. If you are going to throw around off the cuff insults about someone by suggesting they're having a panic attack in response to the kind of ill educated nonsense you're writing, you should at least know what you're talking about.

This entire thread is ridiculous, in fact you're spreading the same talking point across several threads. There is zero intersection between the abuse of LGBTQ people in the Soviet Union and the tactics of Antifa in North America in 2017. There may be a few Antifa gathering under the banner of the hammer and sickle, most are not - despite what you may have seen on Fox - and in any case what few Tankies there are, they are not shooting up black churches, mosques, threatening children at Jewish daycare centers, queer bashing, killing trans women, or marching through a town like Charlottesville, which has a large African American population, armed to the teeth and intimidating the population. That would be the fash who are doing that.

You want to educate us about the Soviet Union, well here's a little American history. Jim Crow is living memory in the US. You think it's OK for these people to march about and intimidate people, then you are nothing better than a fascist sympathizer yourself.

This is a libertarian communist website, we know what red fascism means and I'd bet dollars to donuts that most of us have read Otto Ruhle too.

Serge is absolutely right. You're talking a load of crap, trolls are best left hungry and don't bother responding to me because I don't see any further point to this.

radicalgraffiti
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Sep 4 2017 00:57

meerov21 wrote:

if someone uses the confederate flag or the swastika they are advocating white supremacism, racism genocide etc. if someone uses the hammer and sickle they are advocating communism equality, freedom etc they are doing it badly, but that is the intention.

How do you know? I haven't met a single Leninist, including in the countries of the West, who would fight for freedom or equality or for communism. These people are supporters of the authoritarian centralism of the party, the party hierarchy, the nationalization of the economy (and this is one of the most brutal forms of exploitation of workers by the state), and they are in one way or another justify the crimes of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin or Mao. These people are enemies of humanity.

i;ve already explained that its widely regarded as a symbol of communism not Leninism. i'm not aware of any Leninist organisation that uses that flag officaly, so anyone who does is action inderpendently, and besides the average Leninist if they are Leninist is typically better than the average person on these issues

meerov21 wrote:

Moreover, I do not care what is happening in their strange souls. Their flag with the hammer and sickle is flag of the USSR is an insult millions of people, living and dead, U.S. citizens and citizens of European countries.

Just like the Confederate flag offends African-Americans. By the way, some people who use the Confederate flag, say they are against racism. Even if they're not lying, this is not so important.

so you openly admit you dont give a shit about hte material consequences you just want an excesses to make false equivalence between antifa and nazis
no surprise from someone who claims you can destroy the state while being on the same side as nazies

meerov21 wrote:

stuff like this, and decades of movie villans, makes it really easy for people to think that all negartive things said about hte soviat union are made up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

I have not read the Black Book of communism. Saw only fragments of it. I suspect that thanks to the study of the documents and modern scholarly works about the Soviet Union I can tell you about this shit much more horror than any book published in the West. A member of my family that was repressed, could tell more, but he died.

its notorisue for being fake bullshit, you might as well get your infor from the daily mail or fox news.

oh wait

radicalgraffiti
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Sep 4 2017 01:00

i doen't believe you give the slightish shit about gay people imprisoned in the ussr, you've already made it clear you think supporting lgbtq issues is one of the main things wrong with modem anarchist, its blatantly obvious that you are just using it as a tool to attack antifa

Fleur
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Sep 4 2017 01:02

radicalgraffiti:
Quote:

its notorisue for being fake bullshit, you might as well get your infor from the daily mail or fox news.

oh wait

Lol

meerov21
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Sep 4 2017 01:23

FleurI am perfectly calm. I can guarantee you that I would never have a stronger reaction to a patronizing fool like you

It's just insults. For my part, I have not insulted anyone.

meerov21
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Sep 4 2017 01:40

This entire thread is ridiculous, in fact you're spreading the same talking point across several threads. There is zero intersection between the abuse of LGBTQ people in the Soviet Union and the tactics of Antifa in North America in 2017. There may be a few Antifa gathering under the banner of the hammer and sickle, most are not - despite what you may have seen on Fox - and in any case what few Tankies there are, they are not shooting up black churches, mosques, threatening children at Jewish daycare centers, queer bashing, killing trans women, or marching through a town like Charlottesville, which has a large African American population, armed to the teeth and intimidating the population. That would be the fash who are doing that.

The Bolsheviks in Your country is not as strong as they were strong in my country. But they are supporters of totalitarian ideas, not some abstract "communism", at least many of them. Wherever they were in power, they did part of what you described and more, much more horrible. The exceptions are few. I didn't say anything about the danger of Bolshevism in the US at the moment, I spoke about other things. But you and your comrades just use insults. This is proof that with the part of the American and European leftists no dialogue is possible.

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jondwhite
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Sep 4 2017 10:43

meerov, I think in this case, zugzwang is right, no-one but David Duke, Alex Jones etc. thinks Bolshevism is close to power in the West , not even Bolsheviks themselves. Reductio ad hitlerum is about Hitler specifically which you are the only person to mention.
Antifa do not endorse Bolshevism.
A minor point with radicalgraffiti, a lot of tankie groups (less so Trots) do use the hammer and sickle, CPGB for example.

adri
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Sep 4 2017 11:49

One of Jones' latest videos, "Powerful! George Orwell Believed That Communism/Antifa Number One Threat To Humanity."

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Craftwork
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Sep 4 2017 13:45

meerov21
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Sep 4 2017 18:07

jondwhite I think in this case, zugzwang is right, no-one but David Duke, Alex Jones etc. thinks Bolshevism is close to power in the West , not even Bolsheviks themselves.

And why do you say that? You want to divert the conversation away as others here? Read carefully everything I wrote, letter by letter. Just try it. You won't find where I wrote that "Bolsheviks in the moment can seize power in the United States". I never wrote such nonsense. I wrote that American anti-fascists are intolerant of the right wing, but tolerant of the leftist supporters of totalitarianism, the Bolsheviks, who offend with dirty flag of USSR dozens of peoples, millions, just as the flag of Confederation offends African-Americans.

Antifa do not endorse Bolshevism

Antifa tolerant of Bolshevism and do not interfere with its representatives to use of totalitarian symbols.

A minor point with radicalgraffiti, a lot of tankie groups (less so Trots) do use the hammer and sickle, CPGB for example.

What he said was just a stream of rude insults. Such affects only indicate the absence of arguments. Of course tankie use this shit.

Reductio ad hitlerum is about Hitler specifically which you are the only person to mention.

Well just Try to understend what i mean. The right-wing channel had an interview with anti-fascist activists, who said about the struggle against hate-speech. This itself is known position of the anti-fascists who say that they will not allow the right wing to use freedom of speech to spread hatred against minorities. I gave a link on this channel. Instead of discussing the real issue "opponents" say: "No, we're not going to discuss it, because right-wing Fox news channel said this!" This is the use of primitive technology of which I speak: "If Hitler was a vegetarian, then be vegetarian is Nazism. If the right-wing said something, then it isn't true, even if they told that two and two make four". Is it that hard to replace "Hitler" on the "right wing"?