Should anarchists protect "their land" from invaders?

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#1
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meerov21
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Mar 14 2018 15:59
Should anarchists protect "their land" from invaders?

Personally, I do not feel any sympathy for this or that state. If tomorrow Chinese troops enter Russia and establish control over it, it will be no more and no less nice to me than the Kremlin regime. I heard Chinese police are worse than the Russian but on the other hand, Chinese build roads better. In any case, I don't like both.

But the reality can be differ from schemes. The military regime of the occupiers could be extremely brutal against civilian population. This can cause riots and uprisings. Pacifism can't solve many problems. In principle, I see no problem if the anarchists create their own militia to protect people, fighting in their Autonomous units, or at list is some local militias, and preach anarchist ideas.

There is a fairly well known example: Polish anarcho-syndicalists from ZSP (ZZZ). They are known to be involved in direct actions (illegal strikes, occupation of factories - so-called "Polish strikes") before the Nazi occupation of Poland. It was real revolutionary anarcho-syndicalists movement widely used methods of direct action, instead of cooperate with state commissions and the courts. After the occupation, they created their militia. There was the most famous team - Roth N 104 fought during Warsaw uprising in 1944.

However, anarchists fought in their own units and used it to agitate for their own ideas. They rejected Polish state. ZSP fought the Nazis... but not for the state independence of Poland. Anarchists fought for the libertarian Polish Federation based on the self-governance of syndicates, cooperatives and Autonomous regions.

The problem arises if anarchists support the war-of-state. For example, some Ukrainian anarchists supported the state of Ukraine during the war with separatists and war with Russia. Some went to fight in the ranks of Ukrainian army. If a person supports the state, its army and military-industrial complex, which exploits workers, he automatically ceases to be an anarchist.

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Spikymike
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Mar 14 2018 16:09

Maybe you should add your views to the Ukrainian NIHILIST thread on libcom - you start by acknowledging a similar view to them with a reference to ' ... or enlist in some local militias...' but then go on to argue differently for stricter 'anarchist only units' ??

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meerov21
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Mar 14 2018 16:21

Karetelnik wrote there;

But Bakunin insisted that before the German troops could be expelled from France, there had to be a popular revolt to overthrow the "internal Prussians," i.e. the French bourgeoisie. This is quite different from a defencist position that intends to preserve the prevailing social system.

I absolutely agree with the position Karetelnik! I would only add that, apart from this position, there is another revolutionary position of revolutionary defitism. I believe that the position of anarchists and social revolutionaries may be the first or the second, depending on the circumstances.

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meerov21
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Mar 14 2018 16:25

Spikymike Maybe you should add your views to the Ukrainian NIHILIST thread on libcom - you start by acknowledging a similar view to them with a reference to ' ... or enlist in some local militias...' but then go on to argue differently for stricter 'anarchist only units' ??

As for the Nihilist. Nihilist is a group of Ukrainian Pro-government nationalists associated with the AST (although i think not all members of this group are in AST). Some of anarchists of Ukraine do not share this position. Other anarchists attacked these people and beat them. I do not believe that it is right to beat for words, however, I am deeply opposed to these supporters of the Ukrainian state. It's not an anarchism.

Their position is hypocritical . They condemn the far right, who are fighting for the Donetsk people's Republic and they are right in this, but they support the army of the Ukrainian state, which also fights a lot of the far right. Moreover The Ukrainian state is a capitalist system that relies on discrimination against national minorities. 6 European States strongly condemned the new Ukrainian language laws. This discrimination feeds the ideology of Pro-Russian sepratists.

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ajjohnstone
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Mar 16 2018 08:06

I've said this before on libcom...when i worked as postal worker, i had a colleague who was an ex-RSM.

He said to me "If the Russians conquered Britain the only difference would be instead of a crown on our caps it would be a red star and you and i would still be working as fucking posties."

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meerov21
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Mar 22 2018 18:22

Well i think it wodd be more but i understend you

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meerov21
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Mar 26 2018 09:56

but then go on to argue differently for stricter 'anarchist only units' ??

Why, it could be a local volunteer militia, which fought with invaders, in that case, if the government or the nationalists-statists do not control these militias.

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meerov21
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Mar 26 2018 10:03

In part, this text is my reaction to the notes of former Ukrainian anarchists who became supporters of nationalism and the Ukrainian state.

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Khawaga
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Mar 26 2018 17:21

Quote:

In part, this text is my reaction to the notes of former Ukrainian anarchists who became supporters of nationalism and the Ukrainian state.

You should try to engage with them on their thread. I'd be interested to see your exchanges, though from what those Ukrainian "anarchists" wrote, they may judge you as a supporter of the Russian state (for purely being born there).

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meerov21
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Mar 26 2018 20:21

I won't talk to them.

First, they repeatedly insulted everyone who disagrees with them. Before they will bring me and my friends an apology, I'm not going to talk to them.

Secondly, real Ukrainian anarchists who are fighting against the Ukrainian state, attacked these people from the Nihilist and beat them. I am not in favour of beating men and women for love to the state, nationalism or personal insults, but I do not respect Nihilist.

Third, what there is here to discuss with them? The Ukrainian state is a brutal system of exploitation of the poorest. Ukraine's economy is collapsing. All power belongs to the oligarchs. The new Ukrainian language law was condemned as discriminatory against national minorities even by 6 European States and the Venice Commission of the European Union, although Europeans are usually loyal to Ukraine.

What's there to discuss with them? If a weak state is at war with a strong one, anarchists should be on the side of a weak one? What the fuck is that? Anarchists on this logic must defend the Third Reich in 1945? It's nonsense.

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meerov21
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Mar 26 2018 20:22

they may judge you as a supporter of the Russian state (for purely being born there).

They are just ordinary nationalists-statists who share the principle of collective responsibility. "If a worker lives in Russia, he is responsible for the Kremlin's policy in Ukraine". According to the same logic, cobbler Cohen is responsible for the crimes of banker Rothschild...

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Khawaga
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Mar 26 2018 20:23

meerov wrote:

What's there to discuss with them? If a weak state is at war with a strong one, anarchists should be on the side of a weak one? What the fuck is that? Anarchists on this logic must defend the Third Reich in 1945? It's nonsense.

Sure, their brand of anarchism is not something I subscribe to at all, but I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion between a "Russian" anarchist and "Ukrainian" anarchists irrespective how much you may differ from one another, especially so given that you are from each of the "sides" of the conflict. Perhaps there is more unity to be found than differences, but perhaps not. The reason I am suggesting it is from my experience with how well Palestinians and Israelis can discuss "their" conflict with one another even if they aren't that into politics and even if they may be nationalist.

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meerov21
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Mar 26 2018 22:10

I live in Russia, I lived in the past in Israel, and my friends from among anarchists - Egyptians, Palestinians and Mexicans wink I am fucking cosmopolitan)) If tomorrow Chinese take Russia, it is not so important for me. And I don't see why I should be thinking differently about Ukrainian state

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Khawaga
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Mar 27 2018 01:09

Based on that response I must seriously question your reading comprehension. Where on Earth did you get "changing your position on the Ukrainian state" from?

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meerov21
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Mar 27 2018 07:19

I meant not your position, but the position of former Ukrainian anarchists.

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meerov21
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Apr 20 2018 20:28

P.S.
Anarchists could participate in the war with the Nazis and Franco because they were defending their area of a free society in Spain. They did not do so in the best possible way. They integrating into the fucking Spanish Republic: that was a monstrous mistake that can never be repeated (left-wing statesmen are the same enemies of anarchists as right-wing statesmen).

But it has nothing to do with Ukraine. Former Ukrainian anarchists from the Nihilist group simply help with their propaganda to the the Ukrainian state army and the Ukrainian state. In Ukraine there are no analogues of Communitarian settlements of Aragon and Self-managed factories of Barcelona. This people simply protect Ukrainian state together with Azov.